Calling Nightwolve, I would like to hopefully clear up a mistake.

[OmegaRanma]

I would like to clear this little issue up, I have always and only used a single user name over the internet, I also have a static non-changing IP (It's a restriction from my Internet Provider) and I am willing to provide all of my emails and user names I have ever used to clean up this problem. I strongly support your work and would not degrade myself to using insults and acts of immaturity over the internet.

Who ever lowered themselves to attempt to extort from you is quite simply immature and  a complete @sshole that deserves no respect from anyone that supports your cause.

As a matter of fact, I cannot even use proxy utilities (the way my Router is configured outright rejects them) Also because of the strict IP address that is assigned from my ISP, meaning if I were to be banned from any website via the same IP address I use then I would be restricted from ever accessing said website PERMANENTLY because via technical support, my Service Provider said IP addresses from my internet service are unchangeable for the entire length of the service contract (meaning the only way for me to use a Dynamic IP address or any anonymity tricks would for me to totally cancel my service with Cavalier Telephone / DSL and get an entirely new service that has support with a Dynamic IP address instead of a Static IP.

[NightWolve]

Well, I emailed you about this. So I would guess it's my other suspect. No need for you to have made this thread, though I have to say I am a little confused now that I know you're the same person on that other forum (which need not be mentioned). I think you can understand given your entirely different responses/attitude there why I might've guessed it was you.

[OmegaRanma]

Well in regards to my posts over at "The other Forum" and my posts on your forum..

It's rather I am quite indifferent, see I want Falcom to rightly gain profit from thier game, and if there was a potential possibility that there was an Official US release for console then your possible profiting from the translation could put a shunt in this, But then again in regards of supporting your cause, You have tirelessly worked for the benefit for the Ys community to make the games playable in the native English speaker audience...so in this regard you are achieving a great public service for all Ys fans alike.

So I feel that you deserve a reward in some form for your contributions and countless effort, but in the reverse side of the coin since Falcom originally developed the game and your translation patch does not work without the game they developed for, a majority of the credit is placed in Falcom's behalf. The editing of the graphics and text translation is most definitely of course your shining achievement, but it's such a complex situation that is why I am both a supporter of your work as well against the ideal on profiting on a game developers work. It's confusing if you can somehow sort that all out.

I am not saying that you deserve nothing, You most definitely deserve some form of credit and return for all of your hard work, as well for any other Fan translator that gets nothing in return.

I just wish there was a way for all the parties involved to get what they want without anyone getting thier toes stepped on.

Err by parties involved I mean (You and Falcom)

Meaning Falcom gets the rightful profit from thier game, And you get compensation in return. If only Falcom hired you as a Official Localization, then there wouldn't be any legal gray line in the issue.

All I can do is wish you the best for your work and hope success on your future projects and endeavors.

[NightWolve]

and if there was a potential possibility that there was an Official US release for console then your possible profiting from the translation could put a shunt in this,

That's why we didn't go forward with Ys VI way back, free or not free, sold or not sold, just as soon as we heard Konami purchased their license.

but in the reverse side of the coin since Falcom originally developed the game and your translation patch does not work without the game they developed for, a majority of the credit is placed in Falcom's behalf.

I'm not reselling their game. I would be selling a MOD to their game. No different than if you bought an unlicensed MOD for your game console that disables region protection allowing you to play imports on it (which is done without the console creator's permission of course - then you have others that go further to disable copy protection and allow DVD-R/DVD+R discs to function, etc). Now, such a MOD is worthless without the console that it targets, but that doesn't mean it has no value. It's a component/accessory and is sold on the market (Like by places such as Lik-Sang, well, that is, until Sony finally brought the hammer down on 'em). There are many products that are accessories/components to something else, and thus, are of little value if you don't have the other product that they target for change/modification and/or enhancement. (And FYI, yeah, I'm aware that some creators of MODs can and do get licensing/authorization.)

Understand that I'm already 'profitting' from my unlicensed (and hence technically illegal) translation patches. The distinction is that it is voluntary via donations. Not profiting, not earning compensation for my labor, would mean removing all paypal links.

The problem is this... As of today, after 4 years since mid 2003, I have a total of 150 donators (I gained about 80-90 since the Felghana donation incentive period, which as you know, was undercut). Here's the thing. One of the reasons I wanted a portal was to record/display download counts. Sometime after I created this site, in the middle of July '06 maybe, and had collected all the download counts to properly initialize the counters for the Ys I & II Complete patches, I began to get a handle/grasp as to how big the fanbase was, specifically, the amount of consumers of my patches. If I throw in other download counts that I'm unable to record from other sites, the translation news sites (romhacking.net), the 24/7 pirating networks, etc. I'm looking at about ~10,000 users that consume my patches.

Thus, 150/10000 = 1.5%. 1.5% donate, 98.5% don't. That's an awfully lopsided figure and it's been bothering me for a few months now. It seems a majority don't believe in a fair trade. A fair trade in the sense that I've got something that you want, and you got something that I want/need ($5-$10), so let's make a trade, etc.

Obviously, I never started my operation to make money (that happened down the road), but given the generosity I've shown over the years and the caliber of the work, I would've expected more reciprocity. One donator sent me $10 about a month ago. He made a comment, "Alright, I gave up and couldn't wait." Now, I assume he meant that in a lighthearted fashion, but it also did indicate to me it was an act done begrudgingly. I didn't like that, to be honest... It shouldn't have to take a more forceful donation incentive-generating period to spur on donations as I've had to do. But of course, a WAREZ hero saw fit to end that period anyhow.

Meaning Falcom gets the rightful profit from thier game, And you get compensation in return. If only Falcom hired you as a Official Localization, then there wouldn't be any legal gray line in the issue.

I would be more worried about the rightful profit Falcom is losing from pirates, not this. I do the opposite by encouraging international sales.

Again, it's already technically illegal right now, free or not free, sold or not sold. It isn't a grey area. This position appears to me to be an attempt to hold me hostage to the lack of a license if and only if I sell it. Objectively, that is the position that it puts me in.

So, it's like this, freeloaders basically don't care that I had no legal right to create it in the first place, but only ever bother to raise the issue of legality should I try to sell it. That's mighty hypocritical and a selective concern for the letter of the law. If you cared about the letter of the law, Article 8 of the Berne Convention, you would demand I take down all patches currently present on this site as they are all technically illegal as I said. There is no exception for whether or not an unauthorized translation is given out freely or sold. None.

Article 8

Authors of literary and artistic works protected by this Convention shall enjoy the exclusive right of making and of authorizing the translation of their works throughout the term of protection of their rights in the original works.

See, where exactly is the loophole/exception that says, "Oh, but if someone not authorized to translate hands it out for free, it's legal." ??

As they say, that is why you don't take legal advice from a pirate because you get things like the ole 24 hour delete rule for ROMs...

Now, I don't mean to imply you're a pirate, as you've made clear that you own an original copy of Felghana (and for this, you are to be saluted!), but the arguments that you're forwarding are mostly forwarded by them as they have the most to gain by this. Keeps things free for themselves.

I can tell you the REAL issue with selling versus not selling. It increases my risk for getting noticed, but see, that is my concern and my concern alone. Someone who has consented to using my illegal patches and suddenly, selectively decides to "remind me" that they're illegal IF and only if sold, as opposed to being handed out for free, has no right to bitch from a legal standpoint. They are either misinformed of the law or are attempting deception. They clearly forfeited their credibility by consenting to the use of free illegal patches already available on this site from the getgo.

Ys I Complete Patch = UNAUTHORIZED/UNLICENSED/ILLEGAL
Ys II Complete Patch = UNAUTHORIZED/UNLICENSED/ILLEGAL
Ys IV: Dawn of Ys Patch = UNAUTHORIZED/UNLICENSED/ILLEGAL
Xak III: The Eternal Recurrence Patch = UNAUTHORIZED/UNLICENSED/ILLEGAL
Ys: The Oath in Felghana Patch = UNAUTHORIZED/UNLICENSED/ILLEGAL

(Just in case anyone didn't realize that by now...)

Anyhow, criticism from a moral standpoint though is something else, but then, I can perfectly defend myself on that basis. 98% don't donate and we have a few who refer to $5 as "greedy." If you're a WAREZ cheap fuck, I can understand how $5 would be greedy, as anything above $0.00 IS greedy, seeing as how you're used to freeloading, pirating, etc.

[OmegaRanma]

I appreciate your comments on this and thus has given me a broader ideal on the whole situation, and thus with this new knowledge that has educated me, I now rightfully feel you are doing the right thing in this situation.

Regardless if you gave it out for free or sold it it would simply be illegal regardless correct? So then it makes no difference, by you atleast getting a return on this it only promotes better quality work from you and supports you with a return.

From the perspective you've shown me you are correct in your methods.

If I can get enough money aside without the need of worry of keeping food on my table and a roof over my head. I will be glad to donate to your cause not because it's something to be required, But because you *rightfully* deserve it.

As for what I am implying my financial situation, I've sent you a PM regarding, to show that I am not refusing to donate. It's just to show my proof, I am having some problems.

[NightWolve]

Regardless if you gave it out for free or sold it it would simply be illegal regardless correct? So then it makes no difference, by you atleast getting a return on this it only promotes better quality work from you and supports you with a return.

Exactly. The right of making or authorizing translations of copyrighted material technically belongs to Falcom, the copyright holder in this case. Period. That is their right/protection under the Berne Convention. That's the letter of the law. If you want to handle translation of their original works, you must first seek their permission. That permission is usually for sale, of course, but could be given freely.

What's an unlicensed fan translation? It's a fan translation that was created without formal permission from the copyright holder, and thus, is in violation of Article 8 which I mentioned earlier. The US became a signatory of the Berne Convention in 1988, so that is the law of the land for us.

So yeah, all patches available here lack a legal blessing in the form of a license. I could be sent a cease and desist order at any time, which has happened to other groups in the past despite the fact that they were giving out their unlicensed patches freely. "Free" didn't make it any more or less legal... There is no legal to be found here.

It seems though with certain people, their radar concerning the legality (or lack thereof) of such patches only goes up on news that they'll not be able to obtain them for free (for many, to patch their pirated copy of the target software, of course). Now ask yourself why that is... You know the answer. Selective application of the law or being misinformed? Furthermore, for these particular individuals, say I was given permission tomorrow and thus legalized, do you think they would respect my licensed, non-freeware patch? Do you think they would refuse to share a cracked copy of the patch should it become available on that basis? I think you can figure that one out too. It's a game and the goal post would simply be moved further... "Eh, he's an @sshole anyway. I'm not paying him a dime. Here's the crack for his patch, etc."

The only objective here is to selectively raise the issue of illegality in order to deter selling, as opposed to handing it out freely to their greedy, stingy hands. It's, as I described it earlier, nothing but an attempt to hold me hostage for lacking a license, but where oh where is the concern for the lack of a license if it's free? Nobody and I mean NOBODY has ever used the word illegal for these patches, that is, up until their blessed little hearts learned that they won't be free anymore in the future.

If I created something I had no legal right to create in the first place, whether or not I give it out freely or sell it doesn't make a difference as far as the law is concerned. So, if one cares about the letter of the law in this case, he/she must simply demand that I remove all patches. Period. That's final; there is no wiggle room. Now, if you try to draw a distinction between free or not free, sold or not sold, then make legal condemnations if and only if such patches are not free, you have zero credibility and you need to STFU. It's as easy as that.

As for what I am implying my financial situation, I've sent you a PM regarding, to show that I am not refusing to donate. It's just to show my proof, I am having some problems.

Well, based on that, looks like you need donations far more than I do.

[SkyeWelse]

"So yeah, all patches available here lack a legal blessing in the form of a license. I could be sent a cease and desist order at any time, which has happened to other groups in the past despite the fact that they were giving out their unlicensed patches freely. "Free" didn't make it any more or less legal... There is no legal to be found here."

This much is definitely true of several companies as I too have seen several cease and desist orders given to various fan projects, probably the most notable one being that of Akumajou Dracula X Rondo no Chi (Castlevania: Rondo of Blood). Then there was Ocarina of Time 2D, Chrono Ressurection, and even our own fangame project (which probably would have gotten the axe before completion) of a Suikoden fangame. It happens all the time and especially to groups taking the liberties of releasing content deemed unsuitable for non-license holders to produce. And by that you, Nightwolve are hereby GUILTY!

However...

There are some small, but very significant differences from other 'illegal projects' in your approach to produce these English patches.

A) You are doing them so that the Ys series gains a bigger fanbase outside of Japan i.e. through marketing, and you do so by promoting international sales for Falcom. And on that note, we've heard many testimonials from other members such as Justus who has mentioned on occasion how they alone have spread Ys interest in their area and have ordered several copies of many of the Ys games directly from Falcom. If 10,000 people download your patches, there is a rough estimate that at least 20% (500 people) of them or more are in fact not pirates. At anywhere from $40 to $60 to even $80 a game (Let's say $50 for the minimum that someone spends), Falcom expects to make an additional $25,000 in international sales at least provided that the statistics are correct that at least 500 people interested in your patches buy from Falcom and are not Warezerererslol111.

B) Falcom has no U.S. Branch and may also possibly never have a U.S. Branch. So any sales that Falcom gets from international sales I would assume Falcom would appreciate, since without projects such as this they would not be getting this extra attention.

C) You respect other license holders such as Konami who own the rights to release Ys VI here in the United States and PAL territories. You do not foolishly say, "Well screw their sales, I can make a better translated version" and you leave their version as the only one available in English in which consumers can get a hold of.

So, yeah, basically you are in fact doing an 'illegal' operation, meaning you do not have Falcom's direct permission to do what you are doing. But you also are providing an advertising model that is both effective and successful in accomplishing international sales that equal extra money into the pockets of the Nihon Falcom Corporation. Also your current and future plans for your model of developing these patches as you have stated is to provide a service for Ys fans provided they have an original copy of the game. I can really appreciate this fact that you are trying to make it extremely hard for pirates to use your patches as this shows once again your commitment to Falcom's international sales.

I would wager that Falcom knows of your existence in some form or another and it is possible that at first they may have wanted to shut the operation down in the beginning. But I'm also betting that over time they've noticed how many international hits they get coming directly from your website and how many international sales they are recieving due to your operation.

Personally it would surprise me if you recieved a cease and desist letter from Falcom since it wouldn't make sense for them finanically unless they had plans to build an operation of their own in the United States which could and hopefully will happen one of these days.... but doubtful.

If you did recieve a letter to stop this site and what you are doing, I'd argue the fact that you are doing this to promote international sales for Falcom and give them a estimated figure as to how much extra money they are indeed making off your patches without having to give you any course of commision. Even if you decided to quit it all based on fear of lawsuit, I myself and  others would surely argue your case for you directly to the corporation and perhaps through that end a legal compromise could somehow get underway for this operation to continue in some form or another from that point on.

So yeah, I don't know. I've always kind of though of this whole thing you're doing as something heroic in that you are not making these patches to be used with illegal roms or copies of the games while spreading the 'Ys Love' to rest of the English speaking populous. Your whole talk above kinda puts a negative spin on what you are doing as something illegal and unjust and something that you shouldn't be doing that you perhaps feel a bit guilty for doing... But I hope this outlook shows that you are in fact doing quite the opposite and you feel good about yourself, what you are doing, your methods of your work regarding these patches. : ) I personally think that Falcom should one day send you an a big fat ありがとうございました for all of your hard work.

I'm personally trying to promote sales for the Xak series and it's developer Microcabin in my own way and through my own means of advertising the series. Recently I've been very excited to hear that many of the Xak series titles have been picked up for English release and now I can finally advertise the heck out of it so that Microcabin too profits from international interest in their series. I just hope I can be at least 1/4, no 1/8 as successful as your site has been in promoting sales of the Ys games for Falcom. When I start on the Ys content of XyZ, I also want to try and promote international sales for Falcom as well when that time arises.

Anyway, don't feel bad about what you are doing. You're doing the right thing. : )

-SkyeWelse

[OmegaRanma]

Didn't really want to quote your post since it was so big SkyeWelse, but I pretty much agree with everything you said. NightWolve is doing the right thing, and all we can do is support him and wish him success in with his work and all future endeavors.

[NightWolve]

C) You respect other license holders such as Konami who own the rights to release Ys VI here in the United States and PAL territories. You do not foolishly say, "Well screw their sales, I can make a better translated version" and you leave their version as the only one available in English in which consumers can get a hold of.

Well, we were very tempted, but yes, in the end, that was our reasoning for aborting the project. Having purchased Konami's PS2 port down the road and having read Psycho DeuceBag's script though, I can tell you Psycho DeuceBag did a much better job than the boring ass shit that Konami produced. It's so damn dry, very uninspired.

Anyway, it was a tough decision given that I invested all that time hacking/reverse engineering the game (at least a year and a half, if not more) and felt my glory was snatched from right under me. We knew that it was possible Konami was going to pick it up, as the rumors began to surface some time later, but we continued for a while regardless actually hoping it wouldn't come to that. But hey, since Felghana used the same engine, I was able to apply the same knowledge I gained from working on Ys VI and thus, produce the amazing patch you've already experienced.

Text replacement is achieved through a very sophisticated new method I put into use for the first time. I like to call it the "Just-In-Time" Text Replacement system, borrowing a term used by JAVA. Basically, all print functions have been intercepted, and just as a Japanese string is about to be printed, control is transfered to my corresponding interfering function which will take the Japanese string, compute a CRC32 of it, look up the CRC32 to return the memory address of an English replacement that the CRC32 is associated with, overwrite the location that was storing the address of the Japanese string, and finally, it'll return control back to the intercepted print function as if nothing happened. And poof, you see English appear. It is truly magical.

There are 1,767 INDIVIDUAL script files. The traditional method of opening the original script file up, inserting English into it and properly rebuilding the references as needed would've required me to do it for each and every file which would've been hell. Here, I just have a perl script that packs all 1,767 files into one big file, and from there I extract all of the script out. Thereafter, I don't need the original script files; I don't have to figure out how they're indexed and I don't have to rebuild each and every one! It's a wonderful solution and works marvelously, if I do say so myself. There are some drawbacks, but mostly this is the future technique that'll be needed for PC games that split out script files by the thousands.

So yeah, I don't know. I've always kind of thought of this whole thing you're doing as something heroic in that you are not making these patches to be used with illegal roms or copies of the games while spreading the 'Ys Love' to rest of the English speaking populous.

Well, mainly starting with Ys Origin, a much tougher attempt will be made at least. Mind you, the past patches have been pirate friendly. I allowed it to be up to the end-user to go the distance and support Falcom at their discretion. I think I should've been using my influence all along to be a true Falcom fan, and not turn a blind eye or even assist all those who had been fucking Falcom over for the longest time. Their thievery knows no limits. They stole/freeloaded from Falcom, and 96-98% freeloaded off me, plus now, I can also say they stole from me too. I should've seen that coming a mile away.

It's a position that's been building for some time now. I believe I can now safely say that I know how it feels to be Falcom or any other artist/publisher/producer etc. that has to live with the utter comtemptible WAREZ factions running loose on the Internet stealing everything they can get their filthy hands on. Your perspective changes after you've walked the path of a producer, as opposed to when for most of your life you were nothing but a consumer, at the receiving end of things.

I see how detestable, petty, angst-filled, juvenile, etc. that they are, but I used to turn a blind eye to all that too, for the most part. I could be all smiles, put on a happy face for every dumbfuck that shows up on my board to avoid the drama, but it'd be fake.

They took advantage of my being able to subsidize the work on my own for all that time and that my love of the series kept me going, the latter being something they actually try to use against me now. "You're supposed to be doing it for the fans, not for money, so I shouldn't have to give you shit in exchange, neener neener neener!" Anyway, that all changes here on out.

Your whole talk above kinda puts a negative spin on what you are doing as something illegal and unjust and something that you shouldn't be doing that you perhaps feel a bit guilty for doing... But I hope this outlook shows that you are in fact doing quite the opposite and you feel good about yourself, what you are doing, your methods of your work regarding these patches. : ) I personally think that Falcom should one day send you an a big fat ありがとうございました for all of your hard work.

Oh, no, not at all. You got the wrong idea. I've been responding to attempts by pirates to manufacture hyprocrisy by pretending that I've been making legal condemnations against piracy all along. Thus, since my work here is technically illegal, they wanna use that to disqualify me from attacking their thievery. But the fact is I haven't been making legal condemnations. If I say 'cheap WAREZ fuck', 'butt pirate', etc. these are all attacks on one's character, and nothing at all to do with the law. If I was running around saying "illegal pirate illegal pirate", then yeah, you can call me out. But I haven't.

You have a few dumbfucks that came up with the following talking point: "Pirating is as illegal as doing an unauthorized translation." While technically an accurate statement, it's morally bankrupt, frivolous, because it attempts to create a false comparison since there are so many distinct differences between the two actions. If I say that killing someone is as illegal as parking in a handicapped parking space without actually being handicapped, I would expect someone to ask why I would attempt to equate two very very different actions morally on one technical similiarity, the fact that there are laws written that forbid both actions...

Piracy costs the industry millions; you have people that ran piracy rings in the past sitting in jail right now; you have the music industry going after MP3 downloaders; publishers/producers are scrambling for the best copy protection software they can find such as Starforce, etc. That indicates something about the severity, the impact.

Meanwhile, unauthorized fan translations have never resulted in any actual prosecution, but if there has been a case, it's not very well known. Yes, piracy is as illegal as rape, j-walking, arson, murder, burglary, driving under the influence of alcohol, driving over the speed limit, rolling past a Stop sign, and yes, doing an unauthorized fan translation. But I ask the question, what kind of a dumbass would equate very distinct actions together on one binary technical attribute, that there are laws written forbidding each action, and thus, try to apologize for, or rather, deter criticism against other technically illegal actions on that basis?

Anyway, don't feel bad about what you are doing. You're doing the right thing. : )

Attempts have been made by freeloaders to do just that, but yeah, as I explained above, I was answering one or two of their talking points really. It wasn't that I felt 'illegal' directly translates to 'immoral' when it comes to unauthorized fan translations. Legality/illegality is a binary technical matter. There's a reason why illegal and immoral are two separate words with distinct meanings. When piracy and unauthorized fan translations are compared on their illegality, it has the effect of obfuscating the severity, that is, the degree of wrongness of one compared to the other.

It's a diseased mind at work, if you ask me. If you follow such nonsense to its logical conclusion, you wouldn't be able to condemn some pedophile that raped a child in your neighborhood cause just the other day, you may have been illegaly driving over the speed limit, and thus, who are you to judge anybody else's illegal actions when you can't follow every law that's ever been written on the books? Anyway, I'm overstating the point, but you get the idea.

[Blaze]

Its great to see people communicating with eachother using large in-depth paragraphs with great grammar.... most forums i see have simple posts like:

Guy 1:
OMG YOU SUX0RS NO CAKE F0R J00
Guy 2:
F*** you man.

OR

Guy 1:
hpal! hwo yuo gta teh goden axer?!? HELPA!!!!!!
Guy 2:
N00000B!!!

So yeah.... Now to get to the topic at hand...

*Cough*

As long as NW does not Force others to pay to be able to get his work, its legal. Besides if there was any hint of illegalnessosiody something would have happened already Thus, Book closed, BAM!

[NightWolve]

As long as NW does not Force others to pay to be able to get his work, its legal.

But this is obvious. It is impossible for me to actually do so. How can I "force" you to buy something from me over the Internet where you have complete anonymity? It's utterly ridiculous. If I track down where you live one day, show up with a gun, and at gunpoint I force you to drive me to your local ATM station and make a nice hefty withdrawal from your bank account on my behalf, THAT would be "forcing."

Merely putting something up for sale that I created myself isn't "forcing" you to do anything. I'm simply putting something up for sale and looking for buyers. Those that a) want it, b) find the price reasonable and c) can afford it will choose to buy it. I don't see any "forcing" in that equation. I'm tempting you to choose to buy something from me, but there is no "forcing." This wouldn't be any different from any other sales transaction between a buyer and a seller. The lack of a license doesn't somehow magically change the equation into one involving "force."

The selective misuse of the word "force" by certain people is a frivolous attempt to frame/tilt the debate to their favor. The attempt is to create an image based on the word's usual negative connotations of imposing one's will against somebody else's and making that person do something he/she doesn't want to do by whatever means necessary, be it by gunpoint, extortion, death threats, harrassment, sanctions, etc. It is coming from a position framed with a sense of entitlement, that being that you're somehow "supposed" to get something-for-nothing in this case, but just as you were gonna get it, I "forced" you into paying for it, denying you your right to obtain it for free, cause yeah, it's "supposed" to be free (Apparently, those are the rules when you lack a license)... I stripped you of your rights to gain access to the product of my labor for free, you see... That's where "force" comes in... Does that make sense? I'm beginning to think what you have here is a diseased communist mind at work.

There's a reason why I use selective. Let's say you go down to your local Bestbuy, Kmart, Walmart or whatever other store, take your pick, and you try to walk out of said store with some merchandise you picked up without paying. Security stops you and the argument you provide in your defense is, "Well, if you don't let me walk out of this store with this merchandise that I really wanted, you'd be 'forcing' me to do something I really don't want to do. I don't wanna pay you anything and I feel shouldn't have to..." Naturally, you're gonna be laughed at, then handcuffed.

We do have a problem with the above example however. It is not apt enough. You see, the freeloader faction wants to raise the issue of me lacking a license for the product that I have created to deter me from selling it. So if I had a license, then sold it, all their arguments are nullified, correct? Everything about "forcing" or "illegal", etc. goes out the window. The problem is though, the patch is still technically illegal whether or not it is free, as I've said numerous times. So why then does one selectively raise the legal issue at the idea of an unlicensed patch being sold, as well as throw the word "force" around? Is it a difficult mystery to figure out?

I don't see how giving out a product for free that is technically illegal makes it legal. If someone could explain that one to me, please do so. All it seems to do is keep it free for a freeloader... The selling of illegal products/items/substances isn't anything new, but the notion that giving them out for free somehow changes their legal status IS new, to me, at least... It's not hard to see where they're going with that. When/If I sell an Ys Origin patch, they wanna rationalize cracking/stealing it, holding the lack of a license against me then and ONLY then. Nevermind the fact that we're mostly dealing with WAREZ thieves who stole the game itself, so why would I expect a license to be honored in any event assuming I could obtain it? They'll find another rationalization which I expressed earlier as the moving of the goal post.

Oh, and one more thing about "force" while we're at it... The reason that Omega originally created this thread was because I was emailed an extortion threat some time ago by a member of the freeloader faction. Omega was my 2nd suspect as to who did it, but that was wrong. Anyway, that email was an attempt to force me into keeping a possible Ys Origin patch free... The use of 'force' in this case is actually appropriate because the chump who sent the email is trying to make me do something expressly against my will through extortion. Funny how they would misuse the word against my possible future intentions should I merely offer an item for sale, when in point of fact it applies squarely/accurately right back at 'em.

[Blaze]

i ment "force" as in the only way to get the patch... sorry.

i guess the proper word is "sell"... right?

[NightWolve]

i guess the proper word is "sell"... right?

Yesss, now you're catching on. ;) You see why, don't you? If I had a license and did the same thing, is it still "forcing" ? So how is it logical that the lack of a license changes the equation between a buyer and a seller to one involving the use of "force" ?

Anyway, the more apt example that I've been looking for is walking out of a store with illegal products and flipping the owner the bird. Way back I remember some local resale shops in my neighborhood where you could buy illegaly modified cable convertors/descramblers (to give you full access to all pay-per-view, movie channels, etc. from your local cable provider) and police radar detectors to prevent yourself from getting a speeding ticket. I'm pretty sure radar detectors of that nature were declared illegal in my state, as well as others. Now, if you dissect the logic being employed in my case by the WAREZ faction you'll find it is basically a position that if an item is technically illegal (an unlicensed translation patch), it must be free... Therefore, I should be able to apply their asinine logic to such resale shops, correct? I should be able to walk into one of those resale shops, take one of those radar detectors because I hate getting speeding tickets, and simply walk out with it, telling the store owner in passing that because the item is technically illegal in this state, I shouldn't be forced into having to pay for it, rrrright??

Well, I'm gonna try that some time and I'll let you guys know how it works out. :P This is just a wild guess on my part, but I'm betting the owner isn't just gonna let me walk out of there without paying...

[Blaze]

there is a difference in illegalness there... a store owner selling illegal products is just illegal, even giving it away for free is still illegal, just its slightly more illegal to make a profit of it... your patch IS NOT illegal unless you agreed to some EULA Falcom has that saids that you can't make add-ons/modifications their product, if you did then i'm guessing everything would be illegal... wait a minute.... if its not in the EULA does that not mean you CAN sell your patch?!?!

[NightWolve]

there is a difference in illegalness there... a store owner selling illegal products is just illegal, even giving it away for free is still illegal, just its slightly more illegal to make a profit of it... your patch IS NOT illegal unless you agreed to some EULA Falcom has that saids that you can't make add-ons/modifications their product, if you did then i'm guessing everything would be illegal... wait a minute.... if its not in the EULA does that not mean you CAN sell your patch?!?!

There is no difference. You haven't been following this discussion that well then it appears to me. (No offense). Simply put, the patch IS technically illegal right now under Article 8 of the Berne Convention. That is why I could be sent a cease and desist order at any time. That is why it has happened to other fan translation groups in the past, free or not free, sold or not sold... Falcom has all of their games copyrighted (note the usual "All Rights Reserved" notice) and with a copyright, you are entitled to certain rights, certain legal protections for your original works. One of those rights is the right of translation, not just protection against piracy. It is their right and theirs alone to either translate their original works themselves or to authorize/license out the task to other interested parties for a price. So, you have to buy permission from them to translate their original games. You can't just decide to do this on your own without permission, that is why you are open to legal challenges by the original copyright holder should they decide they wish to stop you. I thought we already established this and even with all my redundancy it didn't come through it seems.

Do you know why fan translation/romhacking groups prefer orphaned/dead systems like SNES? One of the reasons is because all the game publishers for that system have moved on to newer systems, and thus, they don't care as much about their protected works for a defunct system whose life cycle came to an end. It's safer. The two PC-Engine titles that I did (Xak III and Ys IV:DOY) are for a defunct NEC system which basically has become an abandonware/public domain playground for many people. I never had any fear of doing an unauthorized translation for either of those games. They're mostly out of print, and so forth, so what were the chances of say Falcom/Hudson Soft barking at me for an Ys IV patch?? Almost zero.

On the other hand, I take much, much bigger risks with a game like Felghana which is still relatively new, in print, for sale on the market, etc. It's still subject to the possibility of being licensed out to an interested party for localization which is exactly what happened with Ys VI WHILE we were working on it... That being said, we betted on that not happening with Felghana given how poorly Ys VI performed in the US.

just its slightly more illegal to make a profit of it...

There isn't slightly more or less "illegal." It either is or it isn't legal. Legal is black'n'white. Either some action is in violation of a law that forbids it, or it is not. Are you confusing illegal with immoral? Now, once you violate a particular law, then of course you get into the degree of wrongness factor and so the punishment will fit the crime. If you drove over the speed limit (which is illegal) and were caught, you get slapped with a speeding ticket. You're fined for $$$. On the other hand, if you kill someone, usually illegal minus say exceptions for self-defense, you get life in prison, etc.

Anyway, if you're gonna say something is illegal, you need to find which law/statute it is in violation of so others can verify it for themselves. So which law is it that makes giving out an unlicensed translation patch (and hence technically illegal) for free [as opposed to selling it], legal ? Which particular law have you been looking at to come to a conclusion ?

I already pasted the law that I'm looking at. Here it is again:

Article 8

Authors of literary and artistic works protected by this Convention shall enjoy the exclusive right of making and of authorizing the translation of their works throughout the term of protection of their rights in the original works.

So, if someone makes a translation of somebody else's copyrighted material without permission/authorization, how does distributing said translation either for free or for a charge change anything based on that law? How does giving it out for free make it "NOT illegal?" Where is the exception for, "Oh, but, but, if you give it to our freeloading asses for free, it's legal!!!!!!!!"?

If you can find out for me, lemme know. So yeah, to reiterate, ALL of my patches that you and others been using are in fact technically illegal. I had no authorization/permission to create them... They were created in violation of the law, thus if you value the law to such an extent, as that is the position your raising of legal issues puts you in, you ought to delete every patch that you have obtained from here. Furthermore, you ought be consistent with respect to valuing the rule of law and destroy that pirated copy of Felghana that you are in possession of... *hint hint* *wink wink*

[Blaze]

yeah ill just stop talking, seems you got it all worked out 

destroy that pirated copy of Felghana that you are in possession of... *hint hint* *wink wink*

huh?

[NightWolve]

destroy that pirated copy of Felghana that you are in possession of... *hint hint* *wink wink*

huh?

I'm sure I don't need to paste your PM to me concerning that...

Anyway, I've beaten a dead horse here. Omega summed up my perspective with, "Regardless if you gave it out for free or sold it it would simply be illegal regardless correct? So then it makes no difference, by you at least getting a return on this it only promotes better quality work from you and supports you with a return."

That's pretty much where I'm coming from. It's making things fair. A fair trade, instead of a lopsided freeloading bonanza as has been the case for years.

[Blaze]

im guessing you did not believe me then huh? well alright... im not going to try and convice you otherwise ill probably just get shot down no matter how much evidence i could get

[NightWolve]

Well, you said you got an image from a friend's disc. That's a pirated copy. That's what I was referring to. Not of your future plans.

[Blaze]

oh, should i remove it, and forget about playing it? i thought it would of been ok... i asked him if i could have it, and i got rejected... so i did the next best thing i could think of, and thats to get an image of his disk... i can't seem to get a hold on him, i think he might be on vacation

Edit: I would of bought it but i was a poor 14 yearold... and now im a poor 15 yearold... damn it all 

[Psycho DeuceBag]

oh, should i remove it, and forget about playing it?

Actually, yes.  The law makes no allowances for age, financial circumstances, etc.  If you are not using an original, purchased copy of a given piece of copyrighted software/movie/music, then you are in violation of the law.  Period.

The whole notion of "fair use" (which is a fairly hazy one, at that) applies solely to backups specifically made by the owner, and for use only by the owner.  Not for giving a copy to a friend as a favor.

Simple rule is: if it's not an original and/or it was not paid for (ie. you bought it or someone bought it for you), then it is theft. 

It's one of the basic tenets of capitalism. You spend money on it, or you do without.  Just because you can get it for free doesn't mean it's okay for you to do so.

[Blaze]

damn... i guess ill just have to stick with the PCE Ys III, which i do legaly own... meh

[Neo-Kaiser]

Or try to convince your parents to buy online and from Japan.

[aburas]

Or try to convince your parents to buy online and from Japan.

Good luck with that budy

[Blaze]

my parents are very technologically declined... and paranoid about identity theft...