YSF? ED6?

[HunterSeeker]

First post and a few questions:

Just wondering if there is any plans on translating YSF and ED6-1? since there isn't an english version for both on any platform.

Also what is the most time consuming task in the process of fan translation? The actual translation of the script or perhaps something else?

 

[NightWolve]

First post and a few questions:

Just wondering if there is any plans on translating YSF and ED6-1? since there isn't an english version for both on any platform.

OK, your first question... Maybe you're not seeing what we're all seeing on the forum index...



Now as for ED6, yes, I've decided to allow some wiggle room and add that to my project list since there are translators that seem eager to work on it. This decision occured little over two days ago. So we'll see how that goes. But YSF and YS6 have been fully translated, but need reviewing before I do anything with them.

Also what is the most time consuming task in the process of fan translation? The actual translation of the script or perhaps something else?

 

Well, it's gonna depend from project to project. If the hacking is easy, then you can wrap that up in a few months. If it's not, it can drag on. If you've got a Japanese/English translator that can do the job, they can finish a script within a month. But after that, editing and reviewing is another process that can drag on. Motivation with the translators can wane as they tire on, so yeah, you have a lot areas that can start consuming a lot of time. I can't point to one thing and say that's the most time consuming task cause it simply varies, etc. But actually, if we look at it from a quantity standpoint instead of a difficulty standpoint that goes with hacking, then in fact, translating one string after the other is the most time consuming I guess when you have thousands of strings to work on. The bigger the script, the more time, naturally. But again, if I as the programmer get stuck, I can take longer than the translators to make progress. So in that case, the more difficult the hacking, the more time I'll need there, etc.

Hm, well, I should add that graphics editing, while usually not much in terms of quantity, it usually is the last thing to get done. In my experience. I don't like doing it. Luckily, Psycho DeuceBag, my translator, did a fantastic job for Ys II Complete and finished a whole bunch of 'em. Otherwise, I procrastinate if I don't have someone to do it for me, and I wind up doing it eventually which was the case with Ys I. For Felghana, I've done most of it myself, having to increase my graphics editing/Photoshop skills, since Psycho DeuceBag is taking a break.

[HunterSeeker]

Heh, thanks for the info.

But i'm not really getting you for some points:

say, for YS6, if it has been fully translated, why does it take a year to finish the patch?

If hacking is the most difficult thing to do, why can't you divide the project up to say 4 to 5 parts and have different people doing them.

As for the reviewing the script, can't you have muiltiple editors and QCs like fansub groups?
I'm sure they are plenty of people who are willing to do the job.

Oh, and last question, around how much text does a game usually have, YS6 for example.

[NightWolve]

say, for YS6, if it has been fully translated, why does it take a year to finish the patch?

Well, I killed the project with Konami's announcement way back. I only decided recently to continue it. There were other circumstances to consider with that particular example. But in other cases, I take my time, with preparing the ReadMe, the patcher, finalizing everything, looking for last minute mistakes, etc. I also have other things to do, so that thing called real life takes time away. Then there's the fact that I've been doing other projects also, like setting the site up and creating an application for ripping PCE/TG16 games easily, so I go back'n'forth here.

Why do you ask?

If hacking is the most difficult thing to do, why can't you divide the project up to say 4 to 5 parts and have different people doing them.

I'm the only guy doing it. The translation team mostly consists of me, the hacker/reprogrammer, and the translator, Psycho DeuceBag. Sometimes we get others to do little things here and there. I have learned from other programmers though, in the past. Like say for Ys VI and Felghana, I wouldn't have been able to reach a point of even being able to hack those if I hadn't received information from another programmer.

Anyway, dude, go ahead, if you've got this all figured out. I'm a little puzzled at your interrogation. I mean, this is a hobby first of all. I and my translators work when we can. Are you asking because you wanna know for yourself or are you demanding faster results from my projects? I don't need nor am I looking for any advice. I'm doing just fine. Besides, your advice is so general as to be obvious and worthless. Yes, yes, IF there were more people to help with the project, I'd welcome it. That's an IF.

As for the reviewing the script, can't you have muiltiple editors and QCs like fansub groups?
I'm sure they are plenty of people who are willing to do the job.

I tried. The response was less than what I would've liked. Your assumption about being sure there are "plenty" of people willing to do the job is unfounded. Have you ever tried managing a particular project and seeing what kind of help you could rally? It's not as easy as you make it sound. There was zero response for editing Ys IV. Ys I Complete got the most response with about 6-7 or so folks, pointing out little mistakes here and there. Much less response for Ys II, but what was did help a bit. One or two people were really exceptional in grammar/spelling correction. Overall though, I was unimpressed.

I have been at this since 2001 btw, so I see no reason to argue this point. If your project really appeals to many, then the help will come. If you pick a dumb game nobody cares about, well, you're out of luck then. While Falcom games are popular, that doesn't mean there are enough fans with the dedication that it takes to see projects like these through.

Oh, and last question, around how much text does a game usually have, YS6 for example.

Well, I can measure that for you in two forms: String count and total byte size.

Ys I Complete has 1,804 unique strings and is 98,126 bytes in size.
Ys II Complete has 5,327 unique strings and is 205,606 bytes in size.
Ys VI has 4,688 unique strings and is 213,771 bytes in size.
Ys Felghana has 4,356 unique strings and is 204,318 bytes in size.

---

Maybe you should go talk to Gideon Zhi of AGTP since he manages tons of fan translation projects for SNES games.

Here you go:

http://agtp.romhack.net/

[HunterSeeker]

I mean, this is a hobby first of all. I and my translators work when we can. Are you asking because you wanna know for yourself or are you demanding faster results from my projects?

Faster results? Nah, then i wouldn't have asked it this way.  I asked since i have absolutely no idea what you guys are doing or more specificlly, how the whole thing works.

There was zero response for editing Ys IV. Ys I Complete got the most response with about 6-7 or so folks, pointing out little mistakes here and there. Much less response for Ys II, but what was did help a bit.

Yes, but, YS6/F & ED6 would be a totally different story to YS1-2 and YS4. Not only those games are very dated, there had been other translated sources. As for YSF,  ED6, there had been absolutely none.

One or two people were really exceptional in grammar/spelling correction. Overall though, I was unimpressed.

Well, i guess you wouldn't need too many people for an reviewing project, an optimal team would be 6 or 7 people at max. Afterall, with everyone editing the same thing at the same time, things gets confusing real fast. I suppose one translator, two editors and some three final QCs are more than sufficient for the task.

I have been at this since 2001 btw, so I see no reason to argue this point. If your project really appeals to many, then the help will come. If you pick a dumb game nobody cares about, well, you're out of luck then.

Oh, and one last thing, i really can't say your site is advertised well enough. It took me forever to find this site, hidden in like the last few pages of google search. Perhaps you could recruit some enthusists from other boards like hongfire, gamefaqs...etc. 

I'd also be happy to help with checking and things if they are needed.

[NightWolve]

Yes, but, YS6/F & ED6 would be a totally different story to YS1-2 and YS4. Not only those games are very dated, there had been other translated sources. As for YSF,  ED6, there had been absolutely none.

That doesn't mean a bunch of fans will be lining up to do lots of grunt work.

Well, i guess you wouldn't need too many people for an reviewing project, an optimal team would be 6 or 7 people at max. Afterall, with everyone editing the same thing at the same time, things gets confusing real fast. I suppose one translator, two editors and some three final QCs are more than sufficient for the task.

Yes, and if you can provide them for me, by all means.

Oh, and one last thing, i really can't say your site is advertised well enough. It took me forever to find this site, hidden in like the last few pages of google search. Perhaps you could recruit some enthusists from other boards like hongfire, gamefaqs...etc. 

Hongfire is well aware of the existence of my patches. I've posted there. Hongfire, GamingForce were where I announced my v1.00 Ys II Complete patch. Gamefaqs, there was a posting for Ys IV, I recall. My site was well advertised on the Translation News sites like The Donut/Whirlpool (now romhacking.net). I got more than enough hits from that. Psycho DeuceBag snuck us into a Wiki Article on Fan Translations, etc.

But... this is a new url for me. I've only had it for a month. I did shutdown RIGG which is what I used to advertise on, but there are redirects from that old url to here. Also, I've only just started building this site. I'm still working on a theme, so...

You say it took you forever, but how did you know to even be looking for this site then? I don't quite understand that comment. Looking forever implies that you knew something about it to begin with.

If you google nightwolve, duece, ys, complete, falcom, patch, etc. we're the first, or at least, close to that, to come up. Googlebots have been crawling all over here. Anyway, I don't time have for this. It is a new friggin' site that I just opened up.

[HunterSeeker]

It took you forever, but how did you know to even be looking for this site? Looking forever implies that you knew something about it to begin with.

Yea, it did took me quite a while to find the site *again*, since i have been to the old site several months ago(or maybe a lot longer then that). I think i was searching for an english translation for ys6.

But at the time this site only have stuff on YS1. While YS6 and later games were listed as discontinued. I guess that could have turned away many people.

Also, I've only just started building this site. I'm still working on a theme, so...

Ah well, i guess everything takes time. =]  But perhaps you should annouce your new site on other forums again.

[NightWolve]

While YS6 and later games were listed as discontinued. I guess that could have turned away many people.

You guessed that "could have turned away many people." OK, so the fact that now, they all knew they weren't gonna get a free English patch for Ys VI turned many of them away is your theory. As opposed to doing what originally? Since you seem to wanna speak for these "many people" that were likely turned away, tell me what they would be doing if they weren't turned away. Posting in my forums?? Lurking about in the shadows?

Man, you do seem to know everything. You should start up your own translation group.

Ah well, i guess everything takes time. =]

Um, yeah.

But perhaps you should annouce your new site on other forums again.

You know... perhaps I don't feel like it right now. Thanks though.

--

I don't think you have the slightest clue as to how you come off as... I mean, it doesn't quite cross the line to being rude, but it is deeply annoying and whiny. Do you not realize it or what? You roll up in here, start an interrogation, then want this done, that done, etc. What do you think this is?? A catering service? And you seem to think you could run a project and know what it takes. Why should that interest me? You've said nothing useful at ALL, thus far! NOTHING!

You wanted to know if YSF and ED6 will be or are being worked on and you got your answer, so we're done. You don't strike me as someone with anything to offer that could be even remotely useful for my projects, so I recommend to stick with being an anonymous end-user of my patches, just like 99% of my site's visitors are that contribute nothing, other than download counts. They probably know well enough not to be annoying pests at least.

Please, do me a big favor and go away...

[JoeQuaker]

Heh, thanks for the info. Grin

But i'm not really getting you for some points:

Your lack of faith disturbs me.

[NightWolve]

Darth Vader to the rescue.

[HunterSeeker]

Meh, o_0, i think you are getting the wrong idea. I was merely asking, though not really expecting an answer.
Since you replied, naturally, i would be interested in what goes on in the project.

It does disturbs me a bit how you'd find my posts interrogation like, then again, i'm also surprised that you guys even replied at all.

so I recommend to stick with being an anonymous end-user of my patches, just like 99% of my site's visitors are that contribute nothing

I joined only because i assumed that all sites welcomes more members to join their forums to keep their site more active and lively. I guess i assumed wrong.

Your lack of faith disturbs me.

*Hides*

[esteban666]

What do you think this is?? A catering service?

Hahahahaaa. Oh my goodness -- I would like to personally thank HunterSeeker for providing some quality entertainment in this thread. I'm not trying to bash you, Hunter, but I too found the tone of your posts off-putting.

[HunterSeeker]

Right.. ok, maybe i sounded a bit n00bish or whatever.
But then again, English is not my first language.

What do you think this is?? A catering service?
Hahahahaaa

and what the heck is a catering service?

[NightWolve]

I joined only because i assumed that all sites welcomes more members to join their forums to keep their site more active and lively. I guess i assumed wrong.

Welcoming does not mean that you get to try the patience of the administrator(s) of a site. I consider this a welcoming site as any other average one with open registration along with fairly decent members, however, that doesn't mean after you've registered and begun aggravating those that run the site/forum that you'll continue to be welcomed after the fact. Duh.

Communities preferably want quality members joining to help make them more active and lively. So far, I don't think you fit the bill, but hey, you're not alone...

[adol1976]

Hey, what's wrong here
Where is that peacefully feeling there was before
So why not change completely the subject or close this one

Well NW, I've got a "newbie" question...
Something I don't understand in computer\games.,  I thought now the programmers were making games in C++. so why  a gamecube games for example ,doesn't work on a pc ? or a pc game on ps2...

[Seldane]

Well NW, I've got a "newbie" question...
Something I don't understand in computer\games.,  I thought now the programmers were making games in C++. so why  a gamecube games for example ,doesn't work on a pc ? or a pc game on ps2...

That is because they have completely different hardware and software specifically developed for a PS2 will not work on a Gamecube. Resources (graphics, sound, etc.) will work, but the actual program will not work.

[JoeQuaker]

Well, it also depends on the game too. C++ in itself IS a very portable language, but it's up to the developer as to how many weird system-dependant libraries and such that are used as to how portable the actual game is.

Take old quake I for example... there are direct ports of the PC games source code compiled that play good on Dreamcast and probably other consoles. The retail version of Quake III for dreamcast was just a port with some things lowered to keep the framerate at 30FPS. Where new high dollar games kill this portabilty though is using the bookoo-dollar SDK (Software Development Kit) which is supplied by let's say Sony or Nintendo... that includes the "weird system dependant libraries" which we can't get ahold of to make our own ports.

This is how SOME games ARE made for Gamecube and PS2 which for the most part are the same despite system-specifix bells and whistles. The game was originally just a computer program like any other... which is ported to each system using their corresponding SDKs. Most new top-listed console games are only developed on one systems SDK.

[NightWolve]

Well NW, I've got a "newbie" question...
Something I don't understand in computer\games.,  I thought now the programmers were making games in C++. so why  a gamecube games for example ,doesn't work on a pc ? or a pc game on ps2...

Hehe, that is a newbie question alright. Looks like Joe took care of it for ya partly. C++ is a high level language and so, like he said, it can be portable. What that means is that you could take the same source code, and compile it on several different platforms/machines, etc. but for something like a game, the coding has to access machine specific instructions which will vary from machine to machine. If there is a layer, some universal graphics/sound layer that's written for every hardware that's out there and if your C++ source code stuck with that, in theory, it could be ported around and still work.

The ideal that you're thinking of is provided by JAVA which is far more portable. If every different hardware has a JAVA runtime engine, your source code will be more "Write Once, Run Anywhere." Like all ideals though, they come with their consequences. The downside with building general layers like the JRT is the loss of speed, and I'm sure you're aware of how JAVA applications are when it comes to that. So, for something like a game console, where every machine instruction counts, programmers build the game around that specific console's ability, letting it work to its full potential. There isn't some general layer associated with C++ like there is with JAVA, which is because C++ still allows you to access the power of specific machine-dependent features, whereas JAVA tries to limit you as much as possible. For example, in C++, I can inline intel x86 assembly code, or compile the project with a whole assembly module. That's not allowed in JAVA so as to foster a mentality of only writing general, high level, non-machine specific code. Which, as I said, is in line with JAVA's philosophy of "Write Once, Run Anywhere", that is, you write your source code once, and then you can compile and run it on every machine/platform, etc. that has had a JAVA runtime engine written for it.

To sum it up, C++ does not have this hardline philosophy with regards to portability (again, where you can take your code and ideally compile/run it anywhere with little to no changes), while with JAVA, that's its main selling point precisely because they took a hardline position on matters of portability. So the difference is with C++, it's your choice on how portable you wanna make your code (and we've given you reasons why developers generally don't such as speed loss, and I would add that there's no general standard (like a JRT for JAVA) of machine-independent libraries, etc.), whereas JAVA has MADE the choice for you and tries hard to impose it.

[adol1976]

allright. seems so complicated. If I was a computer freak (good word ?).
I may try to port some games on other platform...
Thanks for the explanations.